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Piston class?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:32 am
by Scotchmo
AAFTA Division/Classe

The participation in Open/Piston has been worse than "dismal" for the last two years. Rather than trying to support three piston classes, why not a single piston class? All of the piston shooters combined could provide a number of competitors equal to the different PCP classes. In the Grand Prix matches and the National match. As it currently is, there are not enough (or barely enough) piston shooters at most matches to have the three piston classes.

For instance, you could choose to shoot according to any of the three Division rules, but if you shoot a piston gun, you could be in the piston class.

Existing Grand Prix & National classes:
Hunter/Piston
Hunter/PCP
Open/Piston
Open/PCP
WFTF/Piston
WFTF/PCP

Maybe it should just be:
Hunter
Open
WFTF
Piston

Maybe even officially revive the Piston Division and make it inclusive for all Division rules. That would be more fair than consolidating a piston shooter with the PCP shooters in a particular Division.

Open for discussion:

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:37 pm
by ateamray
If the "New" combined Piston class was limited to 12 FTLBs then I believe the WFTF shooters (currently the largest of the piston classes) would accept it. I would. The WFTF shooters are practicing/preparing for international travel and competition.

Even 2 ftlbs more can be a significant wind holding advantage.

This also would only apply to major events like nationals and Grand Prix events. Local clubs could still do whatever they wanted.

This would then be more like the idea of allowing the Open Class to use the hold improvement devices and seating of the other classes.

So except for the ftlb power limit this would be an open piston class. Full power scopes on bipods and chairs or buckets with piston guns limited to 12 ftlbs.

I would feel comfortable shooting against them. (with the 12 ftlb limit for the class).

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:39 am
by Scotchmo
Ray,

"If the "New" combined Piston class was limited to 12 FTLBs then I believe the WFTF shooters (currently the largest of the piston classes) would accept it. I would."

OK, and the WFTF shooters should all be limited to 12x scopes. :lol: NOT

Largest of the piston classes? There were indeed more WFTF piston shooters at the Nationals. But if you look at the Grand Prix participation, Hunter is the largest Piston class. Many shoot over 12fpe, often with off the shelf guns. Some people won't/can't tune their own guns. Requiring guns tuned to 12fpe would be a deal breaker for many.

"The WFTF shooters are practicing/preparing for international travel and competition.

Exactly why we should not be changing rules. Everybody shoots the piston guns the way that they normally would. So you still get your practice for international competition. The others may not be traveling internationally, so why require them to practice at 12fpe for it?

"Even 2 ftlbs more can be a significant wind holding advantage."

The 2fpe "significant" wind holding advantage is not really that significant. I just plugged in the numbers into ChairGun. The difference in drift at 50 yards with a 5mph wind is 2.52" vs 2.46". If you want significant wind advantage, you would have to go up to 18fpe and then the piston shooter would be dealing with other issues that affect accuracy. Believe me, I know because I have tried both.

The lower power piston guns are easier to shoot more accurately while the higher power guns will cut the wind a little better. Neither has a significant point advantage over the other.

"This also would only apply to major events like nationals and Grand Prix events. Local clubs could still do whatever they wanted."

Yes. I'm talking about the Grand Prix events. We already do that at our local matches.

"This would then be more like the idea of allowing the Open Class to use the hold improvement devices and seating of the other classes."
"So except for the ftlb power limit this would be an open piston class. Full power scopes on bipods and chairs or buckets with piston guns limited to 12 ftlbs."

?? - I'm not proposing any new combinations of equipment. This is totally unrelated to that poll. Everyone would shoot the same as before.

"I would feel comfortable shooting against them. (with the 12 ftlb limit for the class)."

So, you are comfortable shooting against a 12fpe, 32x, harnessed, jacketed, bipod piston shooter. But not comfortable shooting against a 14fpe Open/Piston or Hunter/Piston shooter?

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:27 pm
by ateamray
"Scotchmo"]Ray,

"If the "New" combined Piston class was limited to 12 FTLBs then I believe the WFTF shooters (currently the largest of the piston classes) would accept it. I would."

OK, and the WFTF shooters should all be limited to 12x scopes. :lol: NOT

Hunter shooters use 12x primarily because of the rule and they can not get up and down to a bumm bag so it is the only class available to them. Given the choice they would most likely opt for a higher mag and a single combined class would allow that.




Largest of the piston classes? There were indeed more WFTF piston shooters at the Nationals. But if you look at the Grand Prix participation, Hunter is the largest Piston class. Many shoot over 12fpe, often with off the shelf guns. Some people won't/can't tune their own guns. Requiring guns tuned to 12fpe would be a deal breaker for many.

If you look at the Grand prix results and remove the people that only shot at 1 match (the people that don't travel) you then have:

Open Piston 1 shooter
Hunter Piston 5 shooters
WFTF Piston 8 shooters

The WFTF piston class shooters that travel exceeds the combined Hunter and Open piston class shooters that travel.




"The WFTF shooters are practicing/preparing for international travel and competition.

Exactly why we should not be changing rules. Everybody shoots the piston guns the way that they normally would. So you still get your practice for international competition. The others may not be traveling internationally, so why require them to practice at 12fpe for it?

The fact that you are combining all the piston classes into one is changing the rules. There would then be only one AAFTA piston class at the nationals. Only one set of Piston Awards. Look at this years nationals. The top 5 piston scores were all from WFTF piston shooters. The Hunter Piston style shooters may want to increase there magnification so they can range find better and get higher scores otherwise they may not have a good chance in getting in the top 5. So to combine all the piston classes the rules will have to change. The WFTF Piston shooters that are preparing for international competition will self regulate to the WFTF Rules on there own. The WFTF Piston shooters will accept other piston shooters using bipods and such but they will not accept a ballistic disadvantage. So without the 12 ftlb limit the WFTF shooters will not accept the change and the Open and Hunter Piston classes may slowly die out. Accepting the 12 ftlb limit and joining the classes will save the Hunter and Open style piston shooters from extinction. This is of course only for GP and National events. The local clubs can do whatever they would like.



"Even 2 ftlbs more can be a significant wind holding advantage."

The 2fpe "significant" wind holding advantage is not really that significant. I just plugged in the numbers into ChairGun. The difference in drift at 50 yards with a 5mph wind is 2.52" vs 2.46". If you want significant wind advantage, you would have to go up to 18fpe and then the piston shooter would be dealing with other issues that affect accuracy. Believe me, I know because I have tried both.

The lower power piston guns are easier to shoot more accurately while the higher power guns will cut the wind a little better. Neither has a significant point advantage over the other.

WFTF Piston shooters will not accept a ballistic disadvantage. Perhaps only join the Open and Hunter style piston shooters. If you want the WFTF shooters also to join then you will have to keep it sub 12 ftlbs. The Wind adavnatage may not seem like much to you but at the 30 mph winds we had at the nationals it is significant and you are also forgetting about the split advantage of taking down a target with a few more ftlbs.



"This also would only apply to major events like nationals and Grand Prix events. Local clubs could still do whatever they wanted."

Yes. I'm talking about the Grand Prix events. We already do that at our local matches.

"This would then be more like the idea of allowing the Open Class to use the hold improvement devices and seating of the other classes."
"So except for the ftlb power limit this would be an open piston class. Full power scopes on bipods and chairs or buckets with piston guns limited to 12 ftlbs."

?? - I'm not proposing any new combinations of equipment. This is totally unrelated to that poll. Everyone would shoot the same as before.


Re-read what I mentioned about the nationals above ad the seating for Hunter style shooters. They shoot on the seat because they have to. They would welcome more magnification if allowed. They only use 12x because of the rule. Make the only piston class rule be sub 12 ftlbs at Nationals and GP events and let everything else be allowed. That is now less rules to enforce. The WFTF Piston shooters will self regulate to WFTF rules and everything will work out fine.

"I would feel comfortable shooting against them. (with the 12 ftlb limit for the class)."

So, you are comfortable shooting against a 12fpe, 32x, harnessed, jacketed, bipod piston shooter. But not comfortable shooting against a 14fpe Open/Piston or Hunter/Piston shooter?


Absolutely. I will shoot sub 12ftlbs to WFTF Piston rules against any sub 12ftlb Piston shooter following all AAFTA legal hold improvement and seating devices at any magnification they desire but I will not shoot with a ballistic disadvantage. Sub 12 ftlbs and anything goes (another words truely open).



I feel I have answered all of your questions in a calm and un-adversarial way. I believe I have explained my self clearly as well. Please check the tone of your posts as well since your responses to my original post came across as adversarial.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:32 pm
by Scotchmo
Ray,

Sorry about the perceived "tone".

" ...Perhaps only join the Open and Hunter style piston shooters..."
That would be an alternative approach. It would help. Though neither of the two remaining piston classes would come close to any of the three PCP Grand Prix classes. The number of qualifiers in each of the classes were:

26 Hunter/PCP
21 Open/PCP
17 WFTF/PCP

8 WFTF/Piston
5 Hunter/Piston
1 Open/Piston

Even combining all Piston classes would still leave the smallest class. I think the main problem is lack of piston participation in general. WFTF/Piston is fairly popular in the Northeast. On the West Coast, there are maybe two or three WFTF piston shooters in total. Hunter/Piston is more popular around here. Open/Piston is currently not doing well in any area (as I found out first hand this year).

"...for Hunter style shooters. They shoot on the seat because they have to. They would welcome more magnification if allowed. They only use 12x because of the rule...."
If true, then implementation of the ideas in the recent AAFTA poll (which a small majority of the clubs favored) might make this discussion moot. As it would end up with all current Hunter shooters and current Open shooters combined into one Division.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:12 pm
by ateamray
"...for Hunter style shooters. They shoot on the seat because they have to. They would welcome more magnification if allowed. They only use 12x because of the rule...."

If true, then implementation of the ideas in the recent AAFTA poll (which a small majority of the clubs favored) might make this discussion moot. As it would end up with all current Hunter shooters and current Open shooters combined into one Division.

It may be a good idea to start with it in the piston side and not effect the PCP side till we see how it pans out. I have no problem shooting against the other Piston shooters if they are willing to go sub 12ftlb with all the additional seating, sighting and hold improvement devices allowed to them but not to WFTF. I feel it is more about reading and compensating for the wind than the holding still. It used to be the holding still but I have gotten to the point where it is all about the wind that is the game. The holding still has become natural.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:21 pm
by richard
I am not sure I understand all of the proposals here. True piston gun participation is down, but not dismal here. Our shooters are not representative of the whole FT community however I just looked at our last match. I read all of the match reports to see what is going on and we have better attendance at our matches than almost all other clubs(this is for "club" matches which is all we do). We had a total of 7 piston gun shooters at our last match which was 28% of the total. Two were WFTF shooters. So now we are going to the 5 guys just shooting regular old piston guns and tell them they must get them down under 12FPE? A lot of those guns shoot just over 12 FPE.

From time to time I hear lots of noise about FT being more inclusive with special classes for beginners and so forth which I have strong opinions against. What we have here is a situation where we want to go to the WFTF power level of 12 FPE which confuses me. I support the WFTF class however the vast majority of us are never going oversees to shoot so why do we always hear about practice for oversees competition? If you are one of our "world travelers" I admire you for your efforts however the rest of the US shooters want to shoot here under our rules.

Even if we change the division structure we will still end up combining groups. Think about what the advantage of changing things will be. I certainly don't have solutions for the future. Things work fine for our club matches, I think.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:53 pm
by ateamray
Hi Rich. Scott is proposing combining of the piston classes. I am suggesting that the only way the wftf shooters would be willing to combine as if all of the classes went down to 12 foot pounds in the piston division. What you might not be realizing is this would only apply at the Nationals or Grand Prix event. So no worries regarding any of the local matches by any of the clubs. They can always do whatever they want this does not really apply to them. So no worries.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:54 pm
by richard
Thanks Ray. That is what I thought. Generally speaking I would suspect that people shooting Nationals and Grand prix would be fairly knowledgeable about their equipment but it seems unfair to force all piston shooters to get their guns shooting under 12 FPE. Combining piston makes some sense but forcing people out would be unfair too. Speaking generally again, most of the WFTF shooters can out shoot the rest of the piston shooters anyway so why force them(non WFTF shooters) to screw with their equipment only to get beat anyway.
Before any change is made the actual makeup of the shooters at the big matches needs to be evaluated. The 12 FPE may or may not foreclose anyone from participation anyway.

Re: Piston class?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:06 pm
by ateamray
Imagine a wftf Piston shooter turning a gun up to 17 or 18 foot pounds and then shooting open style. He would have a dramatic advantage over the rest of the shooters in the combined class. But if no one has a ballistic advantage it would be fair no matter what scope or hold improvement devices they use. Basically it needs to be a stock car race from the time the pellet leaves the barrel.