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Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:00 am
by FireMarshal
Don't think this has been brought up and I am curious what might be legal or not. Can you use a pad on the heel of your foot? Some of us older competitors have a problem with getting down on the heel of their foot, including me. This makes it extremely hard to be very stable. I have a hip replacement and, in addition cannot get my rear end all the way down on the heel of the foot. The problem is the ligaments and whatever else is in and around the knee will not let it flex enough to rest on the heel of the foot. I know that I can shoot standing instead, but that is not very practical at a target 40 yds away. For me anyway. If this is not allowed, it won't make too much difference, since I am not much of a threat to take the gold metal very often. I don't believe the rules address this question, but could be wrong. I do currently use a legal kneeling pad or bum bag below the ankle.

Many thanks,

Pat

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 am
by FireMarshal
I would still appreciate an answer for the above question. Would also like to know if I am correct in my interpretation of the sling rule. It appears that a sling can be used in shooting offhand with an attachment to 1 point on a rifle and to the upper part of the arm with or without a jacket or it could also be attached to the forearm and the butt of the rifle (2 points) like that taught in the military with HP rifles. If the sling can be used in this manner, can it also be used in the prone position?
Pat

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:37 pm
by John in Ma
You will have a better chance with emailing the BOG. I know this site was supposed to eliminate the need for that but it seems otherwise.

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:01 pm
by Bob Dye
Pat,
The pad between butt and heel was actually discussed at the BoG meeting at this year's Nationals... for all the reasons you cite.
I don't believe any decision was made, but an action item was noted in the Minutes as follows...

Allow 3" pad between butt and heel on kneeling shots for comfort. ACTION TAKEN: BOG to
review and report.

It would be good to bring this up occasionally to ensure it doesn't get forgotten.

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:42 am
by Sean McDaniel
Rules say you can use up to a 2" pad, they don't limit where. Go for it.
Knee pads or other forms of padding or risers placed between
the arm, thigh, knee, leg and/or rifle may not exceed 2 inches in
thickness.

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:30 pm
by Bob Dye
Sean McDaniel wrote:Rules say you can use up to a 2" pad, they don't limit where. Go for it.
Knee pads or other forms of padding or risers placed between
the arm, thigh, knee, leg and/or rifle may not exceed 2 inches in
thickness.

The rules specific to Forced Positions (in this case kneeling) do NOT permit the use of pads other than to support the ankle from below.

"The rear foot shall be upright and straight in line with the knee. A legal seat may be used to support the rear foot and/or ankle, provided that the foot and knee have contact with the ground."

Personally, I'd like to see this change, to permit folks with knee replacements, etc, to shoot the kneeling position alongside other, more able-bodied shooters. (I do NOT have replacement joints in my legs so I don't have any agenda in this comment.)

Knee replacements (in particular) do not have a range of motion beyond 100-120° or so. This means that shooters with these replacements can't safely assume the kneeling position without damaging the replacements. A pad (thickness to be determined) might allow these shooters to sit on the pad between the ankle and rear end with more comfort.

The rules state that kneeling shots can be taken offhand, but most of the people affected would prefer some allowance, so they can shoot kneeling as prescribed.

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:26 am
by John in Ma
Your direct quote only specify what type and placement of padding are to be used between the body and ground. They say nothing about padding between the heel and butt. If it were true that you could have nothing between the heel and butt then a large boot heel or other heel padding from a boot or shoe would not be allowed correct?

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:53 am
by Leo Duran
FireMarshal wrote:Don't think this has been brought up and I am curious what might be legal or not. Can you use a pad on the heel of your foot? Some of us older competitors have a problem with getting down on the heel of their foot, including me. This makes it extremely hard to be very stable. I have a hip replacement and, in addition cannot get my rear end all the way down on the heel of the foot. The problem is the ligaments and whatever else is in and around the knee will not let it flex enough to rest on the heel of the foot. I know that I can shoot standing instead, but that is not very practical at a target 40 yds away. For me anyway. If this is not allowed, it won't make too much difference, since I am not much of a threat to take the gold metal very often. I don't believe the rules address this question, but could be wrong. I do currently use a legal kneeling pad or bum bag below the ankle.

Many thanks,

Pat

Hey Pat,
Just to be sure I understand, can you please post a picture?
Thanks!

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:21 pm
by Bob Dye
Leo Duran wrote:
FireMarshal wrote:Don't think this has been brought up and I am curious what might be legal or not. Can you use a pad on the heel of your foot? Some of us older competitors have a problem with getting down on the heel of their foot, including me. This makes it extremely hard to be very stable. I have a hip replacement and, in addition cannot get my rear end all the way down on the heel of the foot. The problem is the ligaments and whatever else is in and around the knee will not let it flex enough to rest on the heel of the foot. I know that I can shoot standing instead, but that is not very practical at a target 40 yds away. For me anyway. If this is not allowed, it won't make too much difference, since I am not much of a threat to take the gold metal very often. I don't believe the rules address this question, but could be wrong. I do currently use a legal kneeling pad or bum bag below the ankle.

Many thanks,

Pat

Hey Pat,
Just to be sure I understand, can you please post a picture?
Thanks!


I believe this is what Pat is asking for, Leo. In addition to a kneeling roll below, a pad (of some thickness) above. This picture (I didn't capture it) is of infamous rules stretcher Charles Garvey, at some past match where this got attention.

I am researching knee replacements myself, and am pretty sure that any such padding permitted will need to be thicker than 2", because the artificial joints will need thicker support so as not to overstress the artificial joint and break it. Maybe 4-6"? I don't know. Will need (an objective) someone with a knee replacement to experiment. I would trust Pat for sure.

IMO, the thicker the pad, the higher the shooting position becomes, hence less stable. So while it might be an advantage over shooting offhand per current rule, I don't imagine it more advantageous than shooting without the pad. At least shooters can feel like they're fitting in with the other kneeling shooters. Just some thoughts as all of us get older.

Image

Re: Question on eqipment for kneeling lane

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:09 am
by FireMarshal
Leo,

I can't believe that you really want a picture of my butt(LOL), but the picture of Charles is somewhere near want I am talking about. I wouldn't require anything near 4". That would probably make it even more unstable. Actually I have tried about 2" and it really does help. Maybe even 1". I do appreciate the response and would like the BOG to consider this for next year. My hip replacement does not seem to be a problem as much as my knee and the inability to bend it due to the wear and tear over the years. Some times I can actually get within a 1/2", but cannot put any more weight or pressure on the knee at that point which makes it even more unstable than trying it off-hand. I doubt that I am the only one that has a problem with this.

Thanks for the consideration and thank you Bob for the picture,

Pat