Off Hand Stands and The Rules

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Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby JimW » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:11 pm

Will there be a ban on three legged stands for ranging at off hand lanes?

Obviously no tripods are allowed in Hunter and I would assume this is the case in open...well no bipods are allowed in open and may competitiors have them atttached but don't use them to shoot with, ah, so now you see my confusion...

Back on subject, ranging stands at off hand lanes... Mine has three legs, I can add a forth to be "legal" but isn't this getting out of hand? Will my extra leg actually change any aspect inherent in the tripod based ranging stand??? It's kinda stupid to add a leg just because in hunter tripods are not allowed.

Technically any fixed item at a lane can't be used, so built in ranging stands (like at the Heflin Nats standing lanes) are not allowed? I don't believe the rules clarify between ranging and shooting.

I am totally confused by the various interpretations of the rules and what has been allowed to this point.

The AAFTA rules have been carefully written to not be particularly verbose or long winded, after all this is not a paying job for anyone involved. There is an obvious push to keep things simple and I respect this and understand why it was done as such. Please do not take this as an attack on the rules of AAFTA, it is not the intent.


Are bipods allowed in open when not being used for shooting, is my three (or four) legged ranging stand allowed and can I use a lane feature/fixed ranging stand?

*removed some "bs" on my part
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby richard » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:36 pm

I will not make a comment specific to the rules you question but rather defer to the individual match directors at each individual venue. My belief has always been that we should not make the rules and guidelines too involved. If we tightened them up the rules would be lengthly and less manageable than they are now. Several rule questions/comments have come up over the winter. We are in the process of reviewing them and deciding how we will handle them at our matches at Falls. I think there were four specific issues or clarifications that I reviewed and wrote a short opinion on. I sent them to our FT committee and we will review them and decide how to go with each one. We will make the shooters aware of how we intend to handle those particular rules at the shooter's meeting prior to our first match.

I would also point out that some of these rule issues can be legitimately argued more than one way so you end up picking the way you think works best at your match. We run strictly club level matches so we want to have fun and not spend lots of time being rule police. Regional and state matches maybe should be more strict. Some issues related to non AAFTA classes we run can have no basis in the rules anyway. The NRA uses a fall back position in some of there rules saying that shooter's actions must be within the "spirit" of the rules. Like some other things in life, hard to define but most know it when they see it! There will always be nuances in the rules and they would best be clarified by the individual match directors.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:06 am

I asked a similar question of the BOG a couple of years ago and was told (via email):

"... forms of support while ranging is not (and is not intended to be) regulated..."

Rules change over time, so I asked again more recently but did not get a new answer. So I'm still basing my allowances on the original answer. At least until told otherwise.

At our matches, you can support the rifle any way that you want while ranging (bipods, tripods, hay bales, whatever). When you take the shot, you must be complying with any AAFTA equipment and support restrictions that apply to your Division.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Leo Duran » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:38 am

The idea is that shooters can use whatever form of support they may find at the lane.
So, it's up to the MD (hosting club) to provide (or not provide) some sort of rest/support, as sometimes provided for OFFHAND lanes.

That is, shooters can only bring to the lane the equipment allowed under their corresponding division.

HTH.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Bob Dye » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:55 am

Leo Duran wrote:The idea is that shooters can use whatever form of support they may find at the lane.
So, it's up to the MD (hosting club) to provide (or not provide) some sort of rest/support, as sometimes provided for OFFHAND lanes.

That is, shooters can only bring to the lane the equipment allowed under their corresponding division.

HTH.


Excellent conclusion to the rangefinding equipment debate... clear, concise, definitive.

At some future date, perhaps this can be codified in the Rangefinding or Equipment section of the Common Rules.

"Shooters may use any rangefinding aids provided for all by the hosting club. Otherwise, shooters can only bring to the lane equipment allowed under their corresponding division."

... or some such verbiage. (Would apply for ALL lanes, not just forced position lanes)
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Leo Duran » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:42 pm

Bob Dye wrote:
Leo Duran wrote:The idea is that shooters can use whatever form of support they may find at the lane.
So, it's up to the MD (hosting club) to provide (or not provide) some sort of rest/support, as sometimes provided for OFFHAND lanes.

That is, shooters can only bring to the lane the equipment allowed under their corresponding division.

HTH.


Excellent conclusion to the rangefinding equipment debate... clear, concise, definitive.

At some future date, perhaps this can be codified in the Rangefinding or Equipment section of the Common Rules.

"Shooters may use any rangefinding aids provided for all by the hosting club. Otherwise, shooters can only bring to the lane equipment allowed under their corresponding division."

... or some such verbiage. (Would apply for ALL lanes, not just forced position lanes)

Information about allowed or not allowed equipment is already listed in the Equipment section for each of the Division Rules.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:33 pm

Leo Duran wrote:Information about allowed or not allowed equipment is already listed in the Equipment section for each of the Division Rules.

In Hunter Division, there are a couple of potential ranging support items that the shooter cannot have (tripods or attached bipods).

In Open Division, there are not really any restrictions on what equipment the shooter can have. The restrictions are on how the equipment is used for support while taking the shot. Can you think of any equipment that the shooter cannot "have" with them?

They original question posted by Jim:
Are bipods allowed in open when not being used for shooting, is my three (or four) legged ranging stand allowed and can I use a lane feature/fixed ranging stand?

How about a simple yes or no.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby JimW » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:32 pm

Leo Duran wrote:That is, shooters can only bring to the lane the equipment allowed under their corresponding division.


Open division rules do not mention anything about ranging stands... Common division rules sets a limit on time and ranging location (no position restrictions, which means otherwise illegal shooting positions are ok for ranging, would equipment therefore be an obvious extension of this idea?).

The rules do not mention gun caddies as allowable equipment...

And the rules are not written as inclusive or exclusive, they are additive.

The rules DO NOT mention gun caddies OR ranging stands as allowed or prohibited.


If one is legal then so is the other.
Last edited by JimW on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby JimW » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:53 pm

Regarding equipment, shooting box and how the rules are actually written...

Nowhere in the rules does it state definitively that I cannot bring a laser range finder to the lane, it just states that I can't use one to range with.

I'll bet you a sweet FT rig that 100 out of 100 people would think that me having a rangefinder at a lane without using it would be illegal.

Yet I bet NOBODY can show me a rule where it states I can't have it at the box.

You can send my dream ft rig to Jim W....... :o


I totally get that these rules are supposed to be easy to read and understand and at some point in time I bet these rules were made because there was enough competition that things needed to be defined. Well that competition is increasing every year. I know lots of people come for the fun and that is their prerogative. I come to win and have fun, I have fun with the people and the places, I travel thousands of miles to win, trust me, I can find fun without driving across the county.

You can't realistically put a "National Championship" up for grabs and think there isn't going to be very heated competition in every department (reading of the rules, equipment, fitness, etc). A National Championship is not shooting with a bunch of buds on the weekend for bragging rights.

For anyone who has been paying attention there has been a lot more 'discussions' of the rules in the last three years. Perhaps there is a need for a more complex set of rules. Or a more inclusive/exclusive set of rules. In fact I would argue that the current rules could be made even more simple by just adding a few words (which would get rid of a bunch of words). There are many people who say they are in it for the fun, but when you start discussing the rules with them they believe that most things are illegal when they actually are not.

Like bipods in Open for example.

How many of the "let's keep it simple" people said on the Yellow that "BIPODS ARE ILLEGAL IN OPEN!!!!!!!!" yet every year I have been in FT I have seen bipods on many open rigs. There are even open people who have stated that bipods are illegal in open and they have one on their own open rig. But the way the rules are written bipods are not illegal in open if they are not used for taking the shot. Those who actually read the rules know this, those who may read but not totally understand the rules will say that bipods in open are illegal and the rules don't need to be made more complex. It is as if they use the "keep it simple" thing to define things as they wish, not as it is written in the rules.

How can such a simple thing appear to be so horribly undefined? Or if it is intentionally undefined then why is it so difficult to answer my question about ranging stands?

Or, to look at it another way, why do those that want to keep things simple keep trying to make things illegal that are not illegal? I'm all for simple rules if those rules are actually interpreted and followed as they were intended.


Totally my own opinion here, the rules need some help, either there is a simple statement in the beginning that says "These rules are additive, if it is not stated as illegal it is considered legal." Or the rule get some further clarification as to allowable equipment, etc. Currently there is something so basic that is being missed by many it's painful to witness.

Thanks for your time.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby JimW » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:51 pm

Bob Dye wrote:At some future date, perhaps this can be codified in the Rangefinding or Equipment section of the Common Rules.

"Shooters may use any rangefinding aids provided for all by the hosting club. Otherwise, shooters can only bring to the lane equipment allowed under their corresponding division."

... or some such verbiage. (Would apply for ALL lanes, not just forced position lanes)


You have read the rules, yes?

Would work great if there was a defined list of equipment in the rulebook.

And before you say that it is obvious that rangefinders are illegal, show me in the rules where it states for any class that a gun caddy is or isn't allowed (or just show me where it says explicitly that no range finders are allowed in the shooters possession while at a lane, rule only say, not used for ranging)...

So this great verbiage and explanation of the rules that will keep them oh so simple is really and totally no help at all.


THIS is exactly the thing i'm talking about.
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