Off Hand Stands and The Rules

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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby admin » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:48 am

Scotchmo wrote:
Leo Duran wrote:Information about allowed or not allowed equipment is already listed in the Equipment section for each of the Division Rules.

In Hunter Division, there are a couple of potential ranging support items that the shooter cannot have (tripods or attached bipods).

In Open Division, there are not really any restrictions on what equipment the shooter can have. The restrictions are on how the equipment is used for support while taking the shot. Can you think of any equipment that the shooter cannot "have" with them?

They original question posted by Jim:
Are bipods allowed in open when not being used for shooting, is my three (or four) legged ranging stand allowed and can I use a lane feature/fixed ranging stand?

How about a simple yes or no.

Sure, you can use a bipod to rest your gun while not shooting regardless of Division, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, a cart, or a gun case.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:24 am

admin wrote:Sure, you can use a bipod to rest your gun while not shooting regardless of Division, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, a cart, or a gun case.

My interpretation of the 2015 rules is that you cannot rest the gun on an attached bipod in Hunter Division. Even if only used as a stand or for ranging. Not the case for the other Divisions since attached bipods are not disallowed in Open.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby admin » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:19 am

Scotchmo wrote:
admin wrote:Sure, you can use a bipod to rest your gun while not shooting regardless of Division, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, a cart, or a gun case.

My interpretation of the 2015 rules is that you cannot rest the gun on an attached bipod in Hunter Division. Even if only used as a stand or for ranging. Not the case for the other Divisions since attached bipods are not disallowed in Open.

Correct.
Bipods are not allowed for Open shooters while in their turn to shoot, so they cannot use a bipod to range... But they can rest their gun on a bipod while another person is shooting... Again, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, or a cart, etc.

It's really not that complicated. Good night.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:15 am

admin wrote:
Scotchmo wrote:
admin wrote:Sure, you can use a bipod to rest your gun while not shooting regardless of Division, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, a cart, or a gun case.

My interpretation of the 2015 rules is that you cannot rest the gun on an attached bipod in Hunter Division. Even if only used as a stand or for ranging. Not the case for the other Divisions since attached bipods are not disallowed in Open.

Correct.
Bipods are not allowed for Open shooters while in their turn to shoot, so they cannot use a bipod to range... But they can rest their gun on a bipod while another person is shooting... Again, just as you can put your gun on a caddy, or a cart, etc.

It's really not that complicated. Good night.

Sorry, but you are wrong. I have ranged the targets while resting my gun on a bipod/seat/tripod or lane feature at every match, mostly shooting Open Division as of late. I verified the legality of it ahead of time.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Leo Duran » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:32 pm

Scotchmo wrote:Sorry, but you are wrong. I have ranged the targets while resting my gun on a bipod/seat/tripod or lane feature at every match, mostly shooting Open Division as of late. I verified the legality of it ahead of time.

I'm curious to know how you verified it?... In any event, I will bring this up to the BoG.
(BTW, using lane features to rest while ranging have been allowed as long as I've been in the game... at least 12 years now)
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:56 pm

Leo Duran wrote:
Scotchmo wrote:Sorry, but you are wrong. I have ranged the targets while resting my gun on a bipod/seat/tripod or lane feature at every match, mostly shooting Open Division as of late. I verified the legality of it ahead of time.

I'm curious to know how you verified it?... In any event, I will bring this up to the BoG.
(BTW, using lane features to rest while ranging have been allowed as long as I've been in the game... at least 12 years now)

"... forms of support while ranging is not (and is not intended to be) regulated..."

That quote came from the prior BOG chairman after questioning the same thing.

And you just said it has been done for as long as you have been in the game. Therefore, the gun can be rested on the ground or anything else in the box. If the gun has a bipod, it can rest on the ground or anything else in the box while ranging. That's the best I can interpret the official response.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby JimW » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:57 pm

I can't even find inference (evidence and reasoning) for not allowing ranging from a bipod in open. Just like ranging from a stand.

Common Division Rules "There are no shooting position restrictions while range finding."
Open Division Rules do not have any "Ranging" restrictions, or anything regarding ranging.

There are no rules or even hints regarding bipods in open class (the word bipod is not mentioned in open division) in the Common rules it states for "Shooting" other than aids permitted by specific AAFTA division rules (slings, bipods, etc) the gun must be supported..." This is for "Shooting" only, "Range Finding" is covered ABOVE the shooting section in Common. That is it for "bipod" in Common.

Since the way the rules are written if it's not allowed it needs to be stated as such, therefore ranging from a bipod (fixed or not) would be legal for open.

I deal with fire and building codes all the time (six 700 page books of rules), if someone can read anything other than the above into the current rules there is an issue here that needs to be resolved on a higher level.


In my book simple would be this in the Common Division Rules "No ranging from a device, support or position that wouldn't otherwise be allowed for taking the shot in that division." One could add a note regarding off hand being allowed or not allowed to use ranging stands of course elements if desired (read, if allowable).

Or if allowed "Ranging from any device, support or position is legal in all divisions apart from any device, support or position specifically prohibited in that division."

THAT is simple, clear and leaves absolutely NO room for making stuff up (interpretation).

Well the words "in that division" could be removed if you want simple. :mrgreen:



Maybe the rules are too simple and therefore confusing to a segment of the population... Like the latest bipod/strap stud legality discussion on the Yellow.
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby admin » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:13 am

Here's the BoG's response:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=74
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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Skypilot » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:28 pm

JIm,

Could you please clarify what you mean by "bringing" an LRF to the lanes? I do that all the time. I just don't use it, it stays in the bag.

So, if by "bringing" you mean toting the LRF with you, then you just lost your 100/100 bet and you can PM me to get my address to send me my sweet FT rig. ( 12 FPE ISP like Donovan Taylors with an 8-80 March, Jon Harris bits, Thank You!)

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Re: Off Hand Stands and The Rules

Postby Scotchmo » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:45 am

JimW wrote:...
In my book simple would be this in the Common Division Rules "No ranging from a device, support or position that wouldn't otherwise be allowed for taking the shot in that division."
...

Jim,
I like it. My simple mind has trouble with the convoluted logic of the current ranging allowances.
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