Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

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Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:36 pm

Hi since my angled scope base is not allowed ,I'm in the market for a new scopeto use in hunter class that has reticles to help me place my pellet . If I find a scope that you can turn on and not touch during the match would it be a legal scope . Just give me a yes or no answer and I'll leave it at that and move on to the next scope for the all mighty reticle scope approval Gods .remember the scope rule is unlimited . This scope is from Burris and it has the x96 reticle in it . The X96 Reticle displays your range to target in a split second. Just place the crosshair on the target and press either button on the objective bell.( this button will be wired to stay on so no touching of the scope will be required). I called the company and he said they could reset the parallax to 10 yards for a extra fee.

Displays distance to target
Displays a lighted dot on your vertical crosshair indicating the correct aiming point at the exact distance
Functions at any magnification

Windage is not fully automated, but the reticle has tools so you can make an accurate hold-off estimate:

Digitally displays a 10 m.p.h. wind value for your specific cartridge at the indicated range to target
The wind value displays how many dots to hold into the wind for a 10 m.p.h. crosswind
You estimate actual wind speed and use the 10 m.p.h. wind value as a guideline for selecting how many dots to hold into the wind
http://www.burrisoptics.com/reticles/x96-reticle
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby John in Ma » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:22 am

Laser range finders are illegal to use in any class of field target. As this scope uses laser range finding it will be deemed illegal.

Look man, just work within the rules and practice all the time with approved equipment like the rest of the top shooters or start your own league with your own rules.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:12 am

Your right John in Ma I found where it said no Laser range finders on page 49 in the 2009 section . I missed that . I'll mark this scope of my list . I'm trying to work with in the rules(man). But I can't found no where in the rules all the way back to 2002 and the rules say nothing about adjusting a scope base and using the crosshairs as a aim point And neither can Chris Berry . but I did find this ( On page 23 0f 52 under the WFTF division rules under Sights it states( Any form of sighting system may be used). They tell you what you can't use like a laser . but the HHA is not a laser . The HHA is a sighting system ) So even in the rules it states it can be used , but some how people are reading the rules and saying its not allowed . If you can find where you are not allowed to angle your scope with a wheel attached to the base that the scope sets on and your not touching or adjusting the turrets please point it out to me and tell me what page its on . I have been looking and reading everything I can read about the rules and there is nothing about this not being allowed so don't get smart with me and say (Look man) In the first place thats not very nice and you need to read the forum rules on being respectful to others seeing how you can't give be a page number where this is ruled out . If there was a rule that said no changing the base angle on which the scope sets I would just drop it, but there is no so it has to be legal to use . If you have a problem with questions put forth in a post just don't answer .Some one will help me out . I'm not looking to break any rules , I read the rules ,I did miss the 2009 no laser but still looking for a no scope angle change . I also don't appreciate having my post locked so no one else can make comments if they wanted too, especially when it has to do with something not found in the rules . Again if it was in the rules I would move on but its not so stop with the attitude John . Chris Berry is saying No to a sight system that is clearly not against the rules . He has yet to point out the rule that does not allow this . To me this is a very strange action to take . Instead of saying your right its not in the rules you can use it till the rules are changes but instead just pulls it out of thin air and stated it would not be allowed . I thought that was why rules were written so people could not just make thing up because they don't like the idea and forbid it . Doesn't this seem a little odd to anyone else . Its like saying ( NO SOUP FOR YOU ) Change the rule, Add what you don't want used to the rules and people will follow it ,if its not their then its okay to use simple as that .
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby John in Ma » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:15 am

Sorry you feel that my verbage was confrontational, it just seems to me you don't get the rule book so perhaps a different explanation is needed.

The rules state what is allowed in each class, be it Hunter, Open or WFTF. As such anything not stated as allowable in said classes will be deemed illegal, or unusable. I hope this clears things up for you and that you can enjoy your time shooting field target.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:59 am

It looks to me like the rules are filled with whats not allowed more than whats is allowed . And this is the correct way to make rules. If its not listed then you can use it . Can I use a 4 power scope ? its not listed as a not to use object , its a given because its under 12x that is a rule . they are not going to say what power you can use , but they will say the power you can't go over . If they stated what is allowed it would be a 1,000 page rule book . Can I wear a tee shirt ? Yes, they don't list that in the rules everything you can wear they just list what you can't wear like a Shooting jackets . . # 1 No shooting jackets, Clothing worn by the
shooter must not restrict body movement. #2 No turret adjustment allowed during the match. (No clicking.) #3 Adjustable components on the stock may not be adjusted during a match. #4 No butt-hooks or thigh-rests are allowed. #5 no tripods. #6 seat may NOT be used to support the rifle .#7 No harnesses or straps are permitted. #8 Clothing worn by the shooter must not restrict body movement. #9 no adjustable hardware may be removed or added during the match. #10 Butt hooks are allowed, but not thigh rests. #11 No shooting sticks .#12 Knee pads, sand bags, and pistol for end mounted knee risers are not allowed. #13 Variable scopes capable of greater than12x are not allowed.
The list goes on and on of what you can't use . You can use anything thats not listed as a cannot thats the way rules work . The rule is you can't go over 55 mph . This is why they don't have signs that list every speed you can go and leave out the one's you can't . It would be impossible to list all the things you can do . What you can do is a suggestion what you cant do or use is a rule , a minimum and maximum is a rule . On page 23 0f 52 under the WFTF division rules under Sights it states( Any form of sighting system may be used). They tell you what you can't use like a laser . but the HHA is not a laser . The HHA is a sighting system .So it has it in plan English as something that can be used ,but Chris is going against this rule . I didn't write the rules and I don't think Chris did either and I don't think he should be telling people something is not allowed when its in the rules that it can be . I think Chris need to talk to a few other people and take a good look at the rules before he tells someone something is not allowed .
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby John in Ma » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:03 am

Good luck. Enjoy next season shooting. maybe we can meet in Michigan next year at Nationals, though I have a sneaking suspicion you won't make it that far. God Day.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby Scotchmo » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:35 am

John in Ma wrote:...

The rules state what is allowed in each class, be it Hunter, Open or WFTF. As such anything not stated as allowable in said classes will be deemed illegal, or unusable. I hope this clears things up for you and that you can enjoy your time shooting field target.


"... be it Hunter, Open or WFTF..."

That does not really apply to Open Division.

The rules don't always state what is allowed. People were using harnesses in Open way before they were specifically allowed by the rules (2014).

Generally, if it does not violate any of the other rules, it is allowed. At least in Open Division. Thigh pods, as a current example, are supported by the body only, so they are OK in Open. They are specifically disallowed in Hunter and WFTF.

There are some nuances in the rules that are not always apparent.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:37 pm

Thanks Scotchmo. I'm new to the field target thing and before I get started with buying things I would like to know for sure whats can and cannot be used in hunter class . I know there are other classes that allow other things . But for now I want to start off in hunter class. Just because I want to use something that hasn't been used before and I can't seem to find in the rules going back to 2002 where its not allowed and neither can Chris Berry , the( HHA sighting system ) and I can't get Chris Berry to point out where in the rules it is not allowed then I think I should be able to use it . I have read the rules a few times from top to bottom and so far no one that is a member of the forum has been able to show me where it rules this out . Having Chris just say its not allowed with out showing me where its not allowed in the rules, to me seems very odd . Maybe its in the rules somewhere and I missed it and I'm sure its possible but when the rules state like on page 23 0f 52 under the WFTF division rules under Sights it states( Any form of sighting system may be used) and the only restrictions as far a sighting goes in the hunter class is no laser's that falls under the ranging category or that the turrets cannot be adjusted (no clicking ) . In Chris's own words (The intent of the rules is no clicking or adjustments of the scope other than ranging. This is a new product on the market and we will revisit the wording as the BOG if needed for Hunter rules. In the spirit of the rules is to use holdover in Hunter class.)
If you notice Chris has add his own words that are not in the rules . (or adjustments of the scope ) This is not part of the rules . Its something Chris has made up on his own for some reason . Very strange thing to do . It might be in the spirit of the rules to use holdover in hunter class ,but its not a rule . So if Chris can't find it in the rules, I don't think me questioning the use of the HHA system should be out of the question and repeatedly ask to move to another class .
The HHA is not a ranging system . Its a sighting system . You still have to use the scopes parallax to get the yardage. Your simply changing the angle of the scope base to use line up the single cross hair on the target . there is no windage adjustment so you still have to know where on the reticle to allow for windage . Its really no different than using the dots ,dashes and multiple intersection lines that are used to line up on the target inside the reticle . The only real advantage of this system and a reason it should not be used is if the hunter class did not allow range finding , but this class does so there is no advantage . It simply keep you from having dots , dashes and intersecting lines all over your reticle .
So why would Chris say its not allowed ? Why would he add words to a rule thats not there for the reason to not allow it ? I'm I the only one that thinks this is odd? I think Chris ( the soup Nazi , No soup for you ) should, not just for me but for anyone else that comes alone with this question, show where in the rules its not allowed as the rules are written now why I can't use it . I'm sorry but the lame reason its not allowed given by Chris is unacceptable . If He can't come up with anything else but what he stated ,I would hope their are at least a few people out there that would agree with me that his( not allowed) answer is incorrect and he should show proof where its not allowed . The (not allowed) verdict handed down by one Chris Berry . I would hope this is just a one sided opinion and is not shared by the rest of the rule committee. For Chris to lock a post so no one can comment on this matter reminds me of the Nazi party restricting free speech . I checked this forum for other locked posts but could not find one other locked post beside mine . Its kind of strange he wants this question stopped for some reason . Why ? And why so fast to not allow it and change the rules if needed to not allow it ? Your just angling the scope to put the cross hairs on target just like you put the cross hairs you have located in different parts of the reticle on the target . No difference at all.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby Scotchmo » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:29 pm

You have to under stand how the rules are.

This is what the rules currently say:
"B. No turret adjustment allowed during the match. (No clicking.)"

This is what they really mean:
"B. No re-zero adjustment allowed during the match."

Another example:

Up until the 2014 rules, Hunter Division had no restriction against lasers. Some of us were looking into using them and then the restriction appeared the following year.

The same could happen to adjustable scope mounts.

Sometimes the rules have to play catch-up. If the adjustable sight base proved to be useful, and some Hunter Division shooters showed up with them, they would probably change the rules to specifically prevent their use.

I know it can be frustrating when starting out and wanting to try something new.

FWIW: I think that you'll find that just using holdover can work really well, even at 12x. I don't like to adjust my scope once I have it zeroed. It just means that you need at least a few marks (mil-dots) on the reticle.

There are a number of clubs that also have non-AAFTA classes. You could then experiment with clicking or adjustable scope mounts while shooting Hunter "style". We call that "Freestyle" at our club. You would not be turned away if you wanted to shoot that way.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:31 am

Thanks Scotchmo, with the HHA system you( do not touch the scope) so "B. No re-zero adjustment allowed during the match." does not apply there is no scope re-zero adjustment at all . I realize there are other class that don't restrict the use of a angled scope base, but as of now , as far as I can tell by reading the rules, hunter class doesn't restrict it either so I have just as much right to use it as you have the right to use your marking inside your scopes reticles to know where to aim . You know Scotchmo all I'm asking for is a showing of the rules where its not allowed ,no big deal , I really don't want hypothetical reasons like the one given my Chris Berry , but a real answer . It should be simple, Yes you can as of now use it or no you cannot because the rule states ( ) <---- so far nothing .
Are answers to all new devices that don't appear to be breaking any of the rules automatically are ( not allowed) . Or are new devices that don't appear to break any of the rules (are allowed) until new restrictions to the device are set to allow or disallowed ? If no rule disallows it , its only common since it is allowed . So please Chris Berry if you can't find where a sighting system like the HHA this is disallowed please answer yes it as of now is allowed . So Scotchmo were the laser's allowed to be used the year's before it was restricted ? If they were allowed until the rules changed then why is Chris Berry saying no to the HHA sighting system before a restriction is listed in the rule if he can't find a restriction the way the rules are now ? To me this is not being very professional but more child like . Step up Chis be a man, show where its restricted or say its allowed until a rule or restriction change .
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