Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby Lonnie Smith » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:57 am

Yes!! ... you can use any reticle, custom or conventional....

However,

Laser's or Laser range finders are not allowed.
Elevation or Windage adjustments to your sighting system are not allowed during the match.
You can use up to 12x magnification so any setting less than 12x is allowed.

The intent with Hunter was to implement the Hold Over/Under method of sighting the target. Kind of like the old Kentucky Windage thing. Ranging the distance to the targets is done by
1) Estimating the distance by eye.
2) Parrallax adjustment with scope.
3) non electronic Mildot or Reticle estimation
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:02 pm

(The intent with Hunter was to implement the Hold Over/Under method of sighting the target.) This is the intent of Hunter class in AAFTA words . Under the AAFTA Hunter it reads Hunter Division
The Hunter Division rules are intended to promote accessibility to the sport of Field Target, and the use of TYPICAL HUNTING EQUIPMENT. As such, the rules shall enforce limits on type of allowed equipment, and shall allow for a broad range of competitor physical fitness and conditioning. (Not Hold Over/ Under sighting Method) I'm having a little trouble finding this intent in the Hand book . Where is it located ? I'm sure its there since a few people have mentioned it .
Since the rules state on page 23 0f 52 under the WFTF division rules under Sights it states( Any form of sighting system may be used). And under the Hunter class it states No turret adjustment allowed during the match. (No clicking.) It seems that under (Sights) that the rules are saying no turret adjustments and no clicking are talking about the internal movement of the scope tube only .
What if you decided use a Anschutz Base. This is not a scope at all it has no glass no x power , not even a reticle ,so I would think it would be considered a open sight or closed sight system . It has adjustments but they are not turrets, Its not changing the angle of the tube inside because there is no tube . The adjustments are only raising and lowing the small peep hole you look through. Since the rules say nothing about adjusting something that doesn't have turrets the adjustment of the open sight system would have to be allowed .
Lets say I put a big cross hair I made from string and put it on a ring and I mounted that ring to a adjustable base . Its not a scope . Its doesn't have any power its just a open sight . Would I be allowed to raise and lower my open sight cross hair in hunter class ? The way the rules are written the only thing you can't adjust is the inside tube of a scope .
Any open sight system is allowed to be used and adjusted how ever you want . I can't under stand why so many people are having trouble under stand this . Hunter class was not made for hold over /under it was made to use( typical hunting equipment ) just as its listed in the book . Where you people get that hold under/ over has anything to do with hunter class is beyond me .
A adjustable Anschutz Base at one time was all a hunter had to use there was no scopes . Are you Chris Berry going to tell me and everyone else that you can't adjust the knobs on a Anschutz base in HUNTER CLASS . You can't get any more hunter class than a open sight use . If you allow the adjustment of a open sight then you have to allow the adjustment of a angle base because a Anschutz or any slide type open rear sight is a angled base . You can't get anymore of a ( typical hunting equipment ) (which is really what this class is about , not your made up hold over / under crap) than a rear slide angled base adjustable open sight, and in your own words your not allowing the adjustment of the rear sight to changed at all which is ridiculous .
Really Chris in typical hunting equipment your not allowing shooters to move their rear sight up and down ? This hold over /under thing has nothing to do with this class at all . You need to realize that hunter class is for typical hunting equipment Which includes being able to adjust your sights by changing the rear sights up and down as needed. That's hunter class and that's the use of typical hunting equipment and the HHA system is raising and lowing the rear sight you don't have to put a scope with glass in it you can add any type of cross hair or u shape or v shape rear sight you want I just so happen to want to use a scope that has a tiny cross hair in the middle of it and a few magnifying glasses to get to 12 x power just like everyone else is using . And your saying its not allowed .
Chris Berry You my friend are wrong about this and sooner or later your going to have to admit your wrong . What are you going to do Chris Berry band the use of all adjustable rear sights . That's what your doing or trying to do and its wrong and I hope the other members of the AAFTA realize this and set you straight .
AAFTA hunter class is not setup for people that use scoped guns with reticles only , As far as sighting goes its made up for and the rules state on page 23 0f 52 under the WFTF division rules under Sights it states( Any form of sighting system may be used). and in the hunter class the exception under the sight category is no turret adjustment, all other rules on sights even in hunter class states Any form of sighting system may be used .
I think everyone need to realize hunter class is not just for scope users with reticles markings inside the scope to use as aiming markers, but if thats the type of sighting system you choose to use then go by the rules of no turret adjusting and let everyone else use their scope with out reticle marking and open sights or closed sights that can be adjusted with out moving turrets, and stop saying its not allowed because it is and it right there in the rules for everyone to read .
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby Scotchmo » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:11 pm

rws45user,

I think you got the attention of the BOG.

This came out yesterday. A proposed rule change that they intend to implement in 2016:

Hunter Division Rules - Sights
FROM:

B. No turret adjustment allowed during the match. (No clicking.)
TO:

B. No Windage or Elevation adjustments allowed during the match.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:21 am

Thanks Scotchmo. I can see the open sight or closed sight users in hunter class are not going to be happy with is . What they are saying is your not going to be allowed to move your rear open sight at all in hunter class . Not being able to adjust your open sight or closed sight like the Anschutz Base sight or any other sighting system is differently not how TYPICAL HUNTING EQUIPMENT is meant to be used , and this is what this class is all about . They are not going to be able to stick with the wording ( No Windage or Elevation adjustments allowed during the match.) Are they really going to stop the open sight shooters from raising there rear sight up and down to make a shot ? If they do that you can't say its a typical hunting piece of equipment. Any shooter that shows up with a Anschutz on their gun is going to be told they can't adjust it in hunter class ? lol that's ridiculous . Its not going to happen . This wording will make open sights on guns unusable . Hunter class is adjustable open sights first before anything , then scope with scope regulations attached. You cant go back and say okay all you open or closed rear adjusting sight using people ,forget about the (any sighing system can be used) rule on page 23 because of scope using people you are not allowed to move you rear sight . Your going to have to do what scope people are doing and use the hold over /under make believe rule like the scope people are doing . AAFTA is not going to be allowed to add is rule because it will stop any open sight shooter from shooting in hunter and I don't think they are going to allow AAFTA to do this to the shooters Mark my words Scotchmo it won't be added. Hunter class is the most basic class there is and open sight started it all and they can't let scopes regulations interfere with that .
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby John in Ma » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:46 am

No one uses open sights in FT. If they did, and competed in Hunter class they would still be held to the rule of no being able to adjust their sights.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:07 am

The new wording will sure stop anyone wanting to use a open or closed sight in the future in hunter class . I was going to put my Anschutz Base sight in the next year AAFTA shoot and see how I would do in hunter class , just to have some fun and compete , but if I can't adjust my rear sight in a class that is listed as TYPICAL HUNTING EQUIPMENT , I guess I will rule that out because you have to adjust your sight . I think the World Field Target Federation would surely frown on this wording because field target shooting is getting more popular every year here in the USA and not everyone wants to use scopes to shoot and might find it very challenging to use a real piece of hunting equipment like the class is meant to be , like a open sight or a Anschutz sight. Wouldn't it be great to round up your buddy's that all have open sights and go shoot in a up coming AAFTA hunter class match and be able to use your guns rear sight adjustments to hit the target ? Well If they change the wording to No Windage or Elevation adjustments allowed during the match. Which would include all types of sighting system , not just scopes, your going to be very disappointed when you find out you can't adjust your rear sight for that 55 yard shot in hunter class. Just because people are not shooting with open or closed sights now doesn't mean they wont in the future and it doesn't mean they should be restricted to the use of their equipment because of scope user rules . But if no one cares about up coming Anschutz or open sight users that need to adjust or single cross hair scope users the new wording should work just fine . I just don't think they are going to restrict adjustment to sights other than scopes .They will be closing the door on potentially new groups of shooters That don't want to use scopes but do want to be in the hunter class where open sight shoots are meant to be . That's not true John watch is video https://youtu.be/o3q5yZ8HEIQ people all across America are starting to shoot airguns and are starting off with open sights and once they can knock down the 14 mm 55 yard target they might want to give hunter class a try but the new wording will end any possible of this ever happening . https://youtu.be/wMNgmv2ll_Q. John do you really think it would be fair if a person wanting to use a Anschitz type rear sight in hunter class and he was told he could not adjust his sights because of a rule intended for scope users . Sounds kind of silly don't you think . John knocking over a quarter(24mm) at 55 yards using a Anschitz sight in the standing position is not a impossible shot and I have done it many times . I have been shooting in 10 meter air rifle matches for years and I'm really no where near as good as most of my 10 meter shooting buddy's and yes 10 meters or 33 feet is close shooting but the holding technique is the same for any distance . I would think in the years to come that a lot of 10 meter shooters would think like to shoot in a hunter class match and not being able to adjust the rear sight would make it shooting in hunter class impossible. So go ahead and close the door Chris Berry to all the future open sight participants in hunter class and make it your hold over /hold under class and change the name of the class from hunter to( Scope only with no adjustment reticles class ) because that's what your making it . And also get rid of the TYPICAL HUNTING EQUIPMENT wording also ,you should change the entire wording of the hunter class from the way its listed now to the hold over/ hold under intent . This way all newcomers to the sport will know what your so call hunter class is really about .
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:16 pm

Lonnie Smith, as of now the wording you typed (Elevation or Windage adjustments to your sighting system are not allowed during the match.) is not under the rules of the AAFTA hunter class so I don't know where your getting this from . Maybe you should take another look at the words used . The rule as it stands now pertains to the adjustment of the internal workings of a tube encased in a metal housing , and does not include other forms if sighting systems like you added in your words above . If the wording you used does become the rule in the future then you can rule out any open or not scope type adjustable rear sighting system like the Anschutz Base system that other shooter might want to use in hunter class . Stopping the adjustability of non scoped rear sighting systems . Lonnie Hunter class was set up to use typical hunting equipment . How did typical hunting equipment go from any sighting system to strictly scoped guns with built in reticles marking as aiming points ? Also the intent listing under hunter division reads

Hunter Division
The Hunter Division rules are intended to promote accessibility to the sport of Field Target, and the use of typical hunting equipment. As
such, the rules shall enforce limits on type of allowed equipment, and shall allow
for a broad range of competitor physical fitness and conditioning.
This is very different to your interpretation of the intent . (The intent with Hunter was to implement the Hold Over/Under method of sighting the target. Kind of like the old Kentucky Windage thing. Ranging the distance to the targets is done by
1) Estimating the distance by eye.
2) Parrallax adjustment with scope.
3) non electronic Mildot or Reticle estimation
I can't seem to find this in the handbook anywhere would you please tell me what page your getting this from ? If you don't like the intent in hunter division then change it to what you typed so new comers will know the intent . If you don't want people that use scoped or non scoped sighting systems to not be able to adjust for Elevation or Windage , then add it to the rules and change your intent in the handbook as well. This will clear things up for new comers like my self . When your intent in hunter division is completely different from whats listed then you should expect controversy. Just remember Lonnie your closing the door to all future open sight shooters that will need to adjust the rear sight in hunter class.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:34 pm

Lonnie Smith, I just read the rules again . The wording has been changed to (No Windage or Elevation adjustments allowed during the match.) To be fair to any one wanting to use non scoped guns you should add that this does not apply to non scoped sighting systems . That would include open or closed sights . This way your not ruling out anyone wanting to shoot in hunter class that has a non scoped sighting system . I think this would make everyone happy because you seriously cannot expect non scoped users to not be able to adjust their rear sight. I also don't think that being able to adjust a open or closed sighting system is going to put the scope users at a disadvantage unless they really suck at shooting . You should not rule out up coming shooters that have rear sights like the Rear Diopter Sight. http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Crosman_P ... _Sight/608 made by Crosman A big supporter of the AAFTA and I'm sure would appreciate the sale of this sighting system to be used in hunter class if the person so desire.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby Bob Dye » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:51 pm

rws45user wrote:I think this would make everyone happy because you seriously cannot expect non scoped users to not be able to adjust their rear sight. I also don't think that being able to adjust a open or closed sighting system is going to put the scope users at a disadvantage unless they really suck at shooting.


Rules are written to accommodate the wishes/needs of LARGE GROUPS of people with similar interests and goals, not small groups.

10m air pistol is shot to the same (short) point of aim and impact. So, that large community adopted open sights as standard, outlawing optical sights of any kind. Works for them as a collective of thousands of shooters worldwide.

Same principle of group rule applies to Airgun Field Target. But not as you desire.

For instance, the closest AAFTA has to open sight shooting is (was) the non-magnification, red dot division within Pistol Field Target – red dot so you can see over the muzzle 10-35 yds. But in the 2-3 years since this was first offered, only one or two people participated in red dot pistol. So this form of FT has all but died. The inaugural year (2015) of Air Pistol Grand Prix has not included the red dot class at all. Darwin’s laws of natural selection at work, really.

People with vastly more experience than you have concluded that shooting FT with open sights is nonsensical, because it is not practical, hence not at all satisfying to shoot… meaning no fun. So virtually everyone has migrated (decades ago) to scoped rifles, where shooting turns from masochism to entertainment (mostly).

Accordingly, at any level beyond a local club, the group of shooters wanting to shoot with open sights is a group of one… you.

It’s laudable that you have a passion for shooting with open sights. And you are welcome to do so under the existing rules. But, you will not find any interest in entertaining rules for Hunter Division at a national level to make accommodations for a single shooter, on this or any other subject. Not much you can write here to change this, so you might as well stop tilting at windmills.

This topic has been thoroughly beaten to death, so I suspect this thread will be locked as the others have been.
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Re: Are all scope reticles really unlimited in hunter class

Postby rws45user » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:48 am

Bob Dye, I hope its not going to get locked because I have other questions about scope reticles . If you don't want to read whats on this post just don't click on it . This way I can get some answers from people that don't mind to answer but good post and I'm starting to find out open sights is just not a part of FT And If your a open sight shooter and you want to adjust your sight your out of luck . I'm not typing this stuff just for me or just for a few members on this forum but for who ever comes along and wants to know the answers to some rule questions that people that are new to the sport like my self and that can't find the answers to can maybe come here and read what others have asked and have got answers to . Some of the wording in the rules are just not to clear to beginners they are very vague . If a open sight shooter reads any of these post they will surely realize ( now) because of what they read on a post and not from the rules because the rules did not make it clear until a few days ago when they changed the ruling that they would not be allowed to adjust their open sight .The wording before the change had nothing to do with a open sight at all it was just a rule for scopes , so how would someone new know the rule was talking about adjusting something that was not a scope . Bob Dye you do realize they just changed the wording in the rule a few days ago . its clearer now that they changed the wording and I just thought it was a little unfair to open sight people but at least they can go to the rule now and get from it that you can't adjust (any sighting system ) you have on your gun . That's a big difference in the rule from what it was before . And my questioning the rule wording is what made them change it , and that's fine now I know what equipment to get for this class .
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