Definition of a shot?

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Definition of a shot?

Postby wx4p » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

I'm sure this has been discussed but I searched the green forum without success...

Just curious why the AAFTA definition of a shot (any discharge of air and/or disengagement of the sear) differs from the WFTF definition (air is discharged from the rifle)

You can probably guess why I ask... In Michigan I opened my bolt for safety during a long cold line and neglected to close it afterwards :oops: Lesson learned is to discharge that shot into the ground next time! But I'm still curious about reasoning behind the rule.

Danny
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby Bob Dye » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:33 am

This was discussed at Nationals two years ago. This latest interpretation is that anytime a sear is tripped, it is counted as a shot. If a target does not do down, the sear trip is counted a miss.

I kept score for a Hunter Class National Champion at a Grand Prix match last year in Baton Rouge, who tripped the sear on his rifle (on an empty chamber) not just once, but twice in a row. Two misses, sorry. Good to know you're not alone, so don't fret.

Some of this is a safety issue, to punish (with a miss) anytime a sear is tripped when the rifle is not purposely aimed down range with the intent to shoot at a target. Unintended sear trips while not aimed at a target can be dangerous. So the rule is to emphasize the need to be completely aware of the state of your airgun at all times, and sanction shooters when they are not. Hope that makes sense.

Tripping the sear on some rifles does not expel air from the airgun barrel (if the breech is open). So the more generic interpretation revolves around tripping the sear, which is common in all cases. Trip the sear, count the shot. HTH.
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby wx4p » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:41 pm

Thanks Bob. Yes I'm perfectly clear on the rule and not fretting(except over my sunday performance)... I re-cocked and knocked over the target for vengenence :lol:

But I'm still less than convinced that the rule is a safety improvement as my bolt was opened for safety purposes to start with... in fact one could argue that the rule might encourage participants to sit idle without opening bolt during a cold lane.

NO big deal, just curiosity why AAFTA and WFTF differ on such a basic rule. As I said, from now on I'll blow off the shot!
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby Bob Dye » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:34 pm

wx4p wrote:But I'm still less than convinced that the rule is a safety improvement as my bolt was opened for safety purposes to start with... in fact one could argue that the rule might encourage participants to sit idle without opening bolt during a cold lane.


Actually, the rule doesn't require open bolts during cold lines. Other than your example, I can't say I've ever seen an open bolt in lieu of firing any loaded airgun into the dirt... which IS the rule requiring an unloaded airgun... and would have solved your situation. Nor is the cold line situation the primary reason for the rule.

There are several instances when the sear can break accidentally, followed by excuses made that require a "ruling." The sear break rule is simple and does not require any interpretation. The rule has been in play for years and works well as is.
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby wx4p » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:39 pm

Bob Dye wrote:
Actually, the rule doesn't require open bolts during cold lines. Other than your example, I can't say I've ever seen an open bolt in lieu of firing any loaded airgun into the dirt... which IS the rule requiring an unloaded airgun... and would have solved your situation. Nor is the cold line situation the primary reason for the rule.

There are several instances when the sear can break accidentally, followed by excuses made that require a "ruling." The sear break rule is simple and does not require any interpretation. The rule has been in play for years and works well as is.


As I said a couple of times, I obviously made the wrong choice :oops: won't do that again...

We're veering very far from the definition of a shot, but you suggest another point on the rule from the handbook:

AAFTA Safety Rules - 3 F. When the Range Safety Officer or Marshal declares the line "COLD", all Shooters will unload (firing pellets into the ground is an acceptable method as long as care is taken to make sure that the direction and surface of impact are safe), break the breech, open the loading port or bolt, or unlatch the cocking lever.


If unloading the pellet is mandatory, perhaps the BOG should insert an "and" after "unload". Because of the last "or" I've been interpreting it as 4 options (shooters will unload, break, open, or unlatch), any one of which is adequate to make the gun safe while holding it in the shooting position during a cold lane call (none of my airguns can fire with the bolt open).

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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby Leo Duran » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:51 pm

wx4p wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed but I searched the green forum without success...

Just curious why the AAFTA definition of a shot (any discharge of air and/or disengagement of the sear) differs from the WFTF definition (air is discharged from the rifle)

You can probably guess why I ask... In Michigan I opened my bolt for safety during a long cold line and neglected to close it afterwards :oops: Lesson learned is to discharge that shot into the ground next time! But I'm still curious about reasoning behind the rule.

Danny

2017 AAFTA handboook - Last update: Oct 25, 2016
http://aafta.org/Assets/handbook/2017/A ... k_2017.pdf

Cut-paste from Page 21:
Scoring
A. When the gun is addressing the lane/target, any discharge of air
down the barrel and/or disengagement of the sear is considered
a shot.
Shooters may announce their intention to discharge the
gun into the ground without penalty of a miss.
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby wx4p » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:23 pm

Thank Leo, I get that (see my original post). I was curious (just curious, not confrontational :D ) about the reasoning behind the difference between AAFTA and WFTF. Bob presented safety (and we're all for that, priority one) and clarity for match directors. Any other inputs welcome.

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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby Leo Duran » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:17 pm

wx4p wrote:Thank Leo, I get that (see my original post). I was curious (just curious, not confrontational :D ) about the reasoning behind the difference between AAFTA and WFTF. Bob presented safety (and we're all for that, priority one) and clarity for match directors. Any other inputs welcome.

Danny

It's a good question... My understanding is that it has to do with intent.

If the sear breaks, you meant to shoot; and if the bolt happened to be open, that's a brain-fart... like many others that may cause you a miss.
As for the origin of the AAFTA definition: It goes way back, way before my time... so maybe one of our old-timers can provide some history and context.
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Re: Definition of a shot?

Postby Bob Dye » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:30 am

wx4p wrote:Thank Leo, I get that (see my original post). I was curious (just curious, not confrontational :D ) about the reasoning behind the difference between AAFTA and WFTF. Bob presented safety (and we're all for that, priority one) and clarity for match directors. Any other inputs welcome.

Danny


Danny, There is no requirement that AAFTA rules in the US mimic international rules. Go over there, and adhere to their rules. Shoot in the US, our rules govern. There are many differences between AAFTA rules and those used in Europe. Some would say our rules are better defined (such as this example). At minimum, I would say our rules are ours, and that is good enough for me.
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